The BatBlog has touched on TIF's before, (tax increment funding) is a controversial tool for redevelopment by municipalities that isn't understood by a lot of taxpayers and the majority of taxpayers don't even know what they are or how they work. For a little insight on and an excellent article on TIF'S by Ball St. University CLICK HERE.and here's another on how TIF's are bad for the taxpayers...CLICK HERE
TIF's can be effective tools when used correctly to redevelop blighted areas, unfortunately wise decisions aren't always the norm and when used unwisely TIF's may actually adversely effect individual taxpayers with higher tax rates, and other consequences.... as the study has shown.
The tax dollars captured in these TIF district's are also diverted away from other tax funded entities like schools, libraries, townships etc. With local financial problems by Clark Co. and the local school system requesting additional funding in the recent election with the referendum, one can see that TIF's aren't always the correct solution to redevelopment, or in the best interests of public and taxpayers.
The east end of Jeffersonville appears to developing quite well on it's own without added TIF funding and The BatBlog thinks it wise for the Moore administration to think carefully if this expansion is the right thing to do and is in the best interests of ALL local residents and taxpayers...
Paging Miss Tina....
ReplyDeleteCould Tina please pick up a white courtesy phone?
Yup Miss Tina is the expert, she knows her stuff about TIF's and if taxpayers were smart they would educate themselves like I have...they are not what politicians would make you believe...
ReplyDeleteI also have supported the Moore administration and oppose expansion of the TIF districts.
ReplyDeleteTina is the bomb.
I have no idea what tif is or what it is used for.
ReplyDeleteIt is very timely
ReplyDeletethat the Award Winning Bat Blog
is discussing economic development,
the state's involvement, and TIP districts!
A meeting about Jeffersonville's economic future
just ended about an hour ago.
Governor Pence and Mayor Moore
had some very successful discussion
in that meeting and economic development was one of the main topics!
Popular Jeffersonville Mayor Mike Moore
who is in on Governor Pence's short list for the next
Lt. Governor has been in a meeting today
and has an announcement
special to the CCC.
Mayor Moore said "I am dedicated to being the mayor of Jeffersonville
and really enjoy the job. Jeffersonville has a lot of exciting things going on
and the future is the brightest that it has ever been."
"While I appreciate the governor's consideration
for the Lt. Governor's job, I feel at this time that it is best
to pull out of consideration and concentrate upon Jeffersonville's prosperity."
"Therefore, I am withdrawing my name from consideration
for the Lt. Governor's job."
"We had some excellent discussions today.
There are some new exciting developments coming
down the road that will be revealed in the future."
"The discussions today
also covered some additional alternatives
and announcements that will be made,
and the governor is continuing
to look at various plans."
It is nice to see the Batblog get the inside information. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteThe Redevelopment Board has the opportunity to improve traffic flow on Tenth Street by bringing in new retail, building a turning lane, adding lighting, and improving ascetics. TIF dollars are monies generated by businesses inside the district (your property taxes are not used). Our sole purpose is to increase tax revenue into the city of Jeff while improving our quality of life. This project will bring in 2% of new tax revenue for every dollar earned inside the TIF as well as the new revenue generated by all the new businesses, as well as giving every resident in Jeff a reason to shop local. I know my job can sometimes be controversial, but I will tell you every decision I make is made to improve the city I will always call home. If you have any questions please feel free to call, 502-295-3738. Mike Moore
ReplyDeleteFor those who don't understand TIF, anything being taxed on those properties will still go to all the taxing units as before. Anything new goes into the TIF.
ReplyDeleteAs HT pointed out, the mayor knows that those properties are going to sell, why TIF them. Share the wealth with other taxing units.
Thanks Mayor for weighing in on the issue. The BatBlog has pretty much agreed on your vision, improvements, and projects through your first term. On the same behalf while TIF districts can be useful and effective, there can be some downsides as explained in the linked articles.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading the BatBlog...
Please keep in mind most of the new housing and residential growth of our city wouldn't have been realized without TIF dollars being spent to improve our infrastructure. With that new residential growth comes new revenue for all taxing districts in Clark County.
ReplyDeleteMy point as I mentioned in the post and like what KV weighed in on. The County has had financial issues for several years now and the school system has even had a referendum for more money. Won't these entities be left out of their share of tax dollars pulled in from TIF properties ???
ReplyDeleteThey have their place...For awhile...And if used correctly...But they can also be shifted and manipulated.
ReplyDeleteI have concerns how they're affecting our local public school systems...Mainly GCCS...They're at a pretty big disadvantage in trying to raise funds and as we saw had to rely on an unsuccessful referendum...( I'm not debating the validity of what GCCS felt they needed addition funds for)...But If the city is determined to continue on with the ones we have and/or move forward with new ones, I can think of no better partner to share some of the monies raised with than our local school system...If Jeffersonville is going to what's envisioned then a well-educated population and a well-funded school system would all seem to go hand-in-hand.
All of the new homes are paying taxes to the school district. If it weren't for the TIF's these homes would have never been built.
ReplyDeleteNew jobs = New residents. New residents = more property tax revenue for our schools and county. More property tax revenue = a smaller tax burden on current residents. Mike Moore
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that TIF's were initially developed to take the place of the short-lived urban renewal projects begun in the 60s' to try to continue to improve "blighted" city areas...( The east end of Jeff doesn't seem too blighted to me )...And it has worked in many places as it was intended...But it can also be an easily gamed system by both politicians and private developers.
ReplyDeleteIt favors private developers by providing them with funds/capital that at one time they had to come up with on their own...A pretty sweet deal.
And yes, new residents do mean more tax revenue...But it also means more students and strain on the schools because while you do have more people to tax the schools are still capped as to how much of that tax money they'll receive...TIF's syphon off a great deal of that additional tax revenue for themselves...And that leaves the schools no choice but to try and raise taxes.
At this point, I don't think we can trust the school system with new revenue.
ReplyDeleteThe powers that be have clearly demonstrated that they do not have the communities best interests at heart.
If the new residents locate within the TIF, new property taxes will not go to the other taxing entities, but the additional residents will place an additional burden on these other entities.
ReplyDeleteDevelopment happened before TIFs existed. They aren't required.
This is a bad move.
It would be great if once TIF infrastructure improvements were completed for the TIF designated area, TIF would be closed out. TIF can be 20 years or more.
ReplyDeleteBy the way mayor Mike, Congratulations for your win in November. We are in this together. TIF can be a great tool if used properly. Go Jeffersonville!
I have done the math. The loss of revenue to TIF is not made up for by residence nor income tax. Furthermore, every TIF in a municipality effects everyone in the county.
ReplyDeleteI will continue to do the math for anyone that would like to learn. Those assessor classes were especially helpful to understand that while Mr Moore is correct saying our property taxes are not directly used, it does shift MORE of a burden to residential.
Tax rate equals levy (more kids = schools need more) divided by net assessed value. Unfortunately TIF takes away from the net assessed value, so all of us pay more for EVERY taxing unit due to the net assessed value being decreased by TIF, abatements, credits, and exemptions.
Will post the math thread from chatter if you'd like. No sense in reinventing the wheel.
New residents only help if they buy BRAND NEW construction otherwise there is no "new" property tax! If the buy a current home, it is already on the tax rolls.
ReplyDeleteBAT Blog Economic Discussion
ReplyDeleteI love TIF districts!
Tax Incremental Funding (TIF) ADDS N E W ADDITIONAL revenue
with the assistance of the RDC and private corporate investment
that did not previously exist.
New construction, new jobs, a better future by economic design.
That is why a TIF exists.
Subsequently, a great amount
of the NEW tax money generated is used to PROMOTE YET MORE economic growth.
It is part of a new growth, specifically created growth cycle.
The TIF districts do NOT "take away"
from the existing amount ( AKA "existing PILES" ) of tax money.
They ADD to it.
The assisted growth ADDS MORE TAXES- property, income, fuel, sales,
road taxes, gas and other energy taxes, surcharges, local, state, federal,
on and on, etc.
Remember that MULTIOPLE various TYPES
of NEW tax funds
are created by the newly INCREASED economic activity.
It is notonly the BRAND NEW property taxes that are created
on new industrial,
commercial,
and residential property
that is created.
It is called a 'multiplier effect',
Both the short term and long term macro-economic effect is highly beneficial.
Bat Blog Economics 101 !
ReplyDeleteThe brand d new additional property taxes that are to be created
might never have been created without the OVERALL highly beneficial design
of the TIF district concept and structure. The companies, the jobs.
and the taxes might never have been implanted
by the private corporations.
Abatement to Stimulate
Many areas see the real estate taxes gradually increased,
usually over a ten year period after the new construction occurs,
as a "phase in" of the assessment
which increases the total real estate tax generated.
Some states set a "sun set" or a "time limit duration" of existence
on "the take" of the NEW ADDITIONAL real estate taxes
going into a TIF fund.
if there is a "sun set" state statutory policy,
the entire local property tax take then goes
into general distribution for all
of the included governmental
taxing entities that have
their hand out.
The taxes that are generate by the highly beneficial
TIF district are a very beneficial economic tool.
Imagine Jeffersonville without the following: River Ridge, The Big 4 Bridge and Big 4 Station, Veterans Parkway, our new marina "Fishermans Wharf", The new Police Station, The new Fire Station, Allison Brook Park, The improvements to Hamburg Pike, improving and widening Tenth Street, North Port with the hundreds of jobs inside our "technical park", The Heavy Haul Road, building the roads at Jeff High and Wilson Elementary, The Greenway along the river.
ReplyDeleteThese projects have helped create over 6,000 new jobs in Jeff in the last four years, this accounts for 98% of all jobs created in Clark County. Our city has grown by over 2,500 people in this same time and seen over 2,000 new homes built.
Now imagine where Jeffersonville and Greater Clark would be without TIF's?
Concerned Citizen ...appreciate your input but the TIF's from what I've discerned aren't nearly as effective or beneficial to ALL residents and taxpayers of Clark County as you try to make them out to be..
ReplyDeleteYes in blighted areas which was meant to be originally the target area's for TIF's, they can be effective...The gateway into the City is a prime example where they can be optimally used and IMO a great tool.
On the other hand, the east end with River Ridge, the new bridge and highway improvements in and out of the area ,has grown exponentially and should continue to do so without the potential burdens of TIF's...
I encourage everyone to read up and educate themselves particularly the linked articles on TIF and make up your own minds...
We do get income taxes thru CAGIT, but no property taxes until the TIF sunsets. Meanwhile, we the taxpayers have to foot the bill for those areas for police and fire.
ReplyDeleteBat Blog Econ Analysis!
ReplyDeleteBat Blog Economic Spin Offs/Generated Benefits Analysis
It is nice to see councilman Kevin Vissing
support Mayor Moore's promotion of Jeffersonville!
Vectren Energy Delivery
As an example of the benefit
of the growth assisted by the mayor,
the RDC, and TIF districts, the UTILITIES
also benefit from the growth, thus assisting
by providing their essential energy support.
Vectren Corporation grows and help the area prosper!
When new businesses and residences
are constructed, they need utilities.
Vectren Energy is one such essential energy provider.
The utilities provide
the VITAL energy necessary
for the increased prosperity.
Support jobs are created,
taxes are paid on the energy delivery,
and supporting jobs and taxes are created
at the energy companies
and their suppliers.
Materials, supplies, expansion, construction and maintenance,
and the energy itself, etc., are all additionally created and passed along. Additional economic activity is created.
The energy utilities also have
a significant "multiplier effect".
The mayor, the RDC, and many other public and private concerns
promote Jeffersonville's growth and prosperity,
thus Vectren Energy supplies additional gas service
to Jeffersonville.
Subsequently, Kevin Vissing then
works hard in assisting to provide that vital gas service!
Nice!
About Vectren Corporation
Distributes electricity and natural gas to business and residential customers in over two thirds of the state of Indiana.
Vectren Energy Delivery (Vectren) serves more than 1 million customers in Indiana and Ohio through three utilities.
•Vectren Energy Delivery of Indiana - South: Serves 110,000 gas customers and 142,000 electric customers in southwestern Indiana.
•Vectren Energy Delivery of Indiana - North: Serves 570,000 gas customers in 46 Indiana counties.
•Vectren Energy Delivery of Ohio: Serves 315,000 gas customers in 17 counties in west central Ohio.
CC paints an overly optimistic view of tif districts, the cumulative effect of them won't be known until 20-25 years down the road. By then all the politicians who implemented them will be gone and can't be held accountable one way or another. That's why they are so popular and over used, plenty of cash on hand for projects that don't have to be paid back for years. California nearly went bankrupt over using tif funding and now has put limits in place where they can only used in run down areas which was the intended use from the beginning of when they were first implemented.
ReplyDeleteThe governmental functions
ReplyDeletein Indiana and Jeffersonville
are administered much more SOUNDLY
than California. There is a Big Differences.
Go Hoosiers!
95 per cent of the jobs created are low paying part time retail related with few or no benefits.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGood point on the jobs created not being of the highest caliber pay wise...And also Tina's observation that additional property taxes are only created on NEW builds.
ReplyDeleteAs to Woo's comment about the current GCCS administration not being responsible ( thus not deserving of new funds)...That's neither here nor there and you know it...Administrations change and even if they didn't the schools are still entitled to what they need to function and serve their students...I'm not willing to starve a school system because I didn't fully support their referendum as it was presented.
TIF's are choking school systems...Including Greater Clark.
Interesting that with all new homes that the enrollment for GCCS has been declining. I don't think they need more tax dollars -- from any source --- until they actually show a real need. So far they have just shown how to waste money.
ReplyDeleteWe do not include any retail low paying jobs in the 6,000 figure. Sometimes it's nice to stop looking for a negative answer and recognize things are pretty good around here. Jeffersonville is the envy of the Midwest.
ReplyDeleteThe jobs issue is a national problem and I can't find fault with the jobs created here it is what it is...High paying $25 -30 an hour manufacturing jobs are gone. Both GE and Ford have restructured their wage and benefits scales to the point that entry level workers are probably making 1/2 of what the same jobs paid 10 years ago...
ReplyDeleteLocally the good news anyone that wants a job can get one, might not be the best but businesses are begging for help and there are many options out there...
As for the school system while they make it appear they are hurting for money, that's questionable...They aren't the best, most efficient spenders of tax dollars case in point
3 million ?? to park busses...
No part time employees are counted in that number also.
ReplyDeleteTo Mayor Moore's point "things are pretty good around here." He is exactly right, we are fortunate and the growth and aesthetic and business improvements downtown are great. The point of this wasn't to take pot shots at the mayor but to point out and educate on the differing sides to TIF's.
ReplyDeleteThe future around here overall is bright,though I and my circle of friends, family and coworkers plus you readers do have some concerns and ideas going forward that the BatBlog will touch on later this week. Hopefully Mayor Mike will come back and comment. His input is greatly appreciated...
I appreciate the mayor participating here and wish he still would on Chatter too (Hutt isn't there these days, btw).
ReplyDeleteHe's wrong on the TIF thing and should maybe be wary some people's SPIN aka BS is a little off-putting, but being engaged is good.
We've seen the TIF math. A few of us have done it. There's a wealth of research on the subject these days. TIFs benefit the politicians that can point to all the pretty things they've done while claiming it wasn't really done with your tax dollars. They benefit developers getting their profits subsidized. They hurt the taxpayers outside the TIFs and starve taxing entities such as schools and libraries. Most voters and taxpayers would rather support schools and libraries than a developer.
Again, to those who want to argue whether GCCS's are using their funds wisely, that's not the point of this conversation...I didn't vote for the referendum either...But just because many were against the project(s) those particular funds were being asked for doesn't mean there aren't other projects ( or higher teacher salaries ) you might support down the road...Different projects and a different administration might make a great deal of difference to many of you, yet the funds issue is the same...I haven't had a child in public school for years but I hate to see the public schools and other public entities being choked like this...Despite what some might think TIF's are not friendly to schools.
ReplyDeleteSay for instance the growth in the east end does raise property values which would seem to suggest the schools will benefit...But in truth they're still capped at what the property was assessed at before the TIF came into play and in all likelihood have more students to deal with.
So if you have a house that was valued at 100K and then increases to 130K after an area is declare a TIF zone, the schools still only get their percentage of the tax on the original 100K...The taxes on that additional $30,000 go to the TIF not schools...As Tina said only NEW construction will bring in additional property tax monies to the schools and that is also capped after the initial valuation...Any subsequent increase in property value/taxes on what was new construction will also go to the TIF.
TIF's have a place but not as a constant source of profit ( and safety-net) for developers at the expense of public schools, libraries, hospitals, etc...Maybe technically our tax dollars aren't being used on many of the projects being pointed too...( Some projects that I've liked and supported)...But it's smoke and mirrors when citizen are then being asked to vote for increasing taxes via referendums to make up the difference in funding that schools and the others mentioned are no longer able to access because of TIF's...We're paying for these things regardless...People get angry that the schools are asking for more tax money but that's there only option because of the fund TIF's drain away from them.
I'm afraid you're mistaken Jules, residential properties are not in TIF's, so that extra 30,000 does benefit the school system.
ReplyDeleteJules, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Residential property does not go into TIF's. The 30,000 dollars you mentioned would go toward the school system. TIF dollars only apply to new business created after TIF district was created.
ReplyDeleteWhat percentage of income
ReplyDeleteshelled out to the public school districts comes from local property taxes?
What is the breakdown from other revenue sources?
What are the TOTAL amounts of tax money given to GCCS each year?
Sources?
Supportive Policy
ReplyDeleteEconomic development
assisted by the diligent efforts of an administration,
an RDC, and a TIF district, along with new capital investment
creates entirely NEW tax revenue streams on several levels
that did not previously exist,
as well as many new jobs and prosperity.
Farm Post Hole Digger
ReplyDeleteto answer your question about tax money given to GCCS each year -- see the link below. Go to the far right document. GCCS's total annual budget is approx. $96 million. Approx. $22 million comes from property taxes -- the rest comes from the state.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-TIs4ljYtYoT1g4LTV5dWp5ajg&usp=sharing
Thank you Anonymous!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous posted:...."GCCS's total annual budget
is approx. $96 million.
Approx. $22 million comes from property taxes
-- the rest comes from the state."
Sooo, "the take"
from the taxpayers for GCCS
is around $96,000,000 a year,
but only around 22% of the GCCS revenue
come from local real estate property taxes!
That is 78% from OTHER SOURCES !
Wow!
That means that the NEW taxes
that are CREATED by policy,
capital investment, the RDC and TIF activities
contribute greatly to the other tax revenue streams
that eventually are funneled
to the school system!
If I've misunderstood or misinterpreted what was explained to me by a someone who frequently deals with TIF's on a professional level I will certainly stand corrected on anything I've misstated...(But would like to go back and have them explain it to me again as well as share the way I explained it here with them)...But I will come back after that and stand corrected or defend my points...I promise ( although it may not be til weeks end). :)
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly no expert ( or Tina ) and they can be complicated...But I have tried to begin educating myself on them over the past few months since they seem to be playing such a big part in discussions locally.
I may not be correct on all the details...Yet...And I don't think all TIF's are evil...Not at all...But I do feel pretty confident saying that in general they are not a good friend to schools.
Moore is right, residential is not captured by TIF.
ReplyDeleteBut #1 $30k increase in residential property values? Ha! I'm a Realtor. No. Not true, and the Ball State study backs that up.
#2 Residential is at a 1% tax cap, so even if we use an imaginary $30k increase, that gives the school $300 more a year.
Commercial is a 3% cap, and usually with much higher assessed values to begin with. Even a small business assessed at $250k is a potential $7500 per year in tax revenue.
No matter how you slice it, the math does NOT benefit the avg Joe. Not til those AVs are released. And how many times has that happened in Clark Co?
P.S. glad to see us agree on an issue Jules!!
Property taxes are meant to be collected locally, distributed locally and spent locally. Every time we trade a local dollar to a state dollar (income taxes vs property taxes) we are beholden more and more to Indianapolis.
ReplyDeleteStop forcing taxing units to beg Indy for money.
The only people who benefit from TIF are the bond lawyers, the engineers, the architects, the land developers, etc. You know, the ones you see regularly donate to the candidates that push that business their way.
Used to be the insurance contracts...now its redevelopment.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Thanks everyone for all your comments, obviously TIF's are a subject we have varying opinions on but in the end we voters elected Mr. Moore to lead Jeffersonville forward and ultimately it is his and the Redevelopment board's decision moving forward on the TIF districts.
ReplyDeleteHe has done a good job, a job done well enough to merit a second term and "things are pretty good around here" to quote the mayor ...and he is correct.
There will be no quick answer if the TIF districts are successful or not it maybe 20-25 years. Mayor Moore will be in his 7th or 8th term and HT will be to old to do this blog...
In the meantime , Remain Vigilant and check out today's post and let's have some fun...
My mistake...As I said last night I'm definitely not an expert and when I hear "property tax" I automatically think residential and didn't question the part further...My friend assumed I understood and didn't specify further either...Crossed wires ( mostly on my end).
ReplyDeleteBut the fact remains that schools are still being cut off from important property tax revenue not only from the specific project but from the whole area around it...Possibly for years.
The state could ( and should in my opinion ) step in and at least protect the schools from losing their share of these taxes...They need to be protected from the long term loss of this revenue...But it's Indiana and as the legislature stands right now I don't think we should hold our breath...The only thing we can do is question any additional expansions of these area's and understand the implications they do have for the schools and in other area's too.
I'm not completely opposed to them but we need to look deeper into and beyond the area's, projects, and people, that are going to benefit from them...It just seems too easy for the money to be diverted into almost any project that redevelopment might want with little oversight or input.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteActually Jules, in a packet I got from the Wheatley Group outlining the benefits of TIF says one of the benefits is that they don't require public approval. ( not like referendums)
(Wording may be exact as I don't have it in front of me)
That's convenient...Lol
ReplyDeleteCould the city ( since the state doesn't seem to be so inclined ) of their own accord just give GCCS's additional funding from the TIF's??
They could. That's when the question of how good of stewards GCCS' leadership is becomes an issue though.
DeleteGiven the current leadership, I'd rather see some other way redevelopment could contribute than just handing over cash, perhaps paying for renovations to schools that serve the TIF areas, for example.
They can pass through assessed value, but it goes to all taxing units. I believe there is legislation in this session that would allow them to solely pass through to the school district.
ReplyDeleteWe've given over 1 million dollars to Greater Clark in recent road improvements.
ReplyDeleteI understand the comment in regards to the stewardship as it currently stands in Greater Clark...Not saying I agree or disagree...But it's noted and I certainly want to see any monies the school system receives used properly too.
ReplyDeleteI was just curious if it could be done at the city's indiscretion though...And I guess they can?? i.e. the road improvements...I know some states, maybe just a few, have passed legislation that protects the schools interest in regards to TIF's...I didn't know Indiana even had anything on the board but I bet it won't pass.
I know there are other entities that feel short-changed by TIF's and I'm not downplaying that, but the schools are just of special interest to me...You can make a place as attractive for business and families as you want but if the schools are less than what they should be you aren't going to attract or keep those families...And I just get a sense of Greater Clark struggling with part of the reason being funding.
That's probably my biggest issue with all of this is how the schools are being affected.
"at the city's indiscretion"
ReplyDeleteLmao!
Lots happens that way too!
Oh God, I did say that??...Lol
ReplyDeleteUh, yeah...Can we say Freudian slip or something??!! :)
Don't forget that GCCS also should contribute from their current huge yearly $96,000,000 tax funding to the homeless coalition.
ReplyDelete$150,000 is considered to be a the goal.
The convenience of this assistance to the disadvantaged is that
it "doesn't require public referendum approval"...